UK. Virgin Class 390 Derailed near Lake District at Cumbria

我可以話你知，是次事故係同架車本身無關，用你既邏輯去講就係:

如果款車rail condition、車輛荷重移動量、車輪橫壓同輪軸重量平衡有問題，呢款車都唔會用左幾年先出事啦，高峰期用車又唔見佢人多出事？

敢問你知唔知以上的terms的成因？
由於佢地可以跟隨列車的運用方式、維修標準，以至天氣的變化而可作改變。
以上的變化係不需要按你口中的時期(period)而出的。

不過，你咁講都唔係錯，只係同全世界既調查方向背道而馳啫，你可能唔了解英國鐵路運作先會第一時間懷疑架車本身既問題。我只可以話你知，而家調查係集中喺路軌問題

我只係唔會係呢個period將其他的可能性封殺掉。起碼宜家件事都仲需要一點時間黎將事實沈澱……
如果意外只係得一樣野就可以trigger的話，我睇好多現今的鐵路技術問題都可以輕易解決啦，係咪？

I personally don't think it is cause by axis-load imbalance due to the fact Penolino are using their active tilt mechanism for suspension and cant tilt purpose. The tilt mechanism is different from Japan type.

Point failure is typical in UK railway industry, I have seen a Potters Bar accident documentary, the cause of failure at that point in time is the loosen bolt on stretcher bar under high frequency vibration as the train pass. But I cannot comment further as the real cause of accident since each root cause is different.

I am sorry 500, but I have to defend the maintenance of UK railway in terms of quality and their management is already a lot better than few years ago. Please remember the resource (money) to use to put into maintenance is never going to match with Japan or France. Network Rail request for extra resource is usually turn down by government.

I think that is the fact that we have to live in.

[ 本帖最後由 tommykwan 於 2007-2-25 20:24 編輯 ]

原帖由 500 於 2007-2-25 18:56 發表
我已然可以咁講ge，當然有我的logic係入便。
如果你唔知/唔清楚我意思的話，站係個人立場上，當然歡迎就此質詢。
但係，我唔認為你有如此的「資格」去批評論我的邏輯。
如果係有point的話，請就此處作出合理的解釋。

要做有關的調查，重點只實就只有兩條路行：當時軌道狀態與及當時車輛狀態。
抽車都未正式收集其車輛的行車參數就咁快話波口有事？難不成你係負責有關列車的checkup？

係直線我就唔同你爭論；但曲線段就唔得啦，要知道wheel climb現象係彎道出軌係的原兇之一。
係全部數據未有進行解釋前，到底都唔可以就此下定論的。

唔需要同你喺technical issue上面爭論，而家調查係集中係喺波口上面，點解？唔通個個都諗唔到架車係可能有問題？如果係有問題，唔通全英國 (包括 tommykwan同我)都諗唔到呢樣野？



不過唔緊要，我只可以講我牽涉呢一個行業比較多，知道既野俾你較多，所以我可以較你肯定作出紏正。

如果 wheelclimb現象係彎道出軌係的原兇之一，點解當日咁多班Pendolino都無事，淨係呢一列出事？如果維珍火車都係喺同一個車棚維修，用同一套維修指引，點解淨係Pendolino會出事？

英國的鐵路基建設施 (infrastructure - 即路軌, 訊號,
隧道, 橋樑及大部份車站等), 由 Network Rail 擁有及運作.
火車服務及車隊則由個別火車營運者負責.

Network Rail 在星期日表示, 星期一 (2月26日) 會有關於
是次意外的初步報告.

從新聞片段及圖片所見, 火車出軌及滾下路基後,
車卡並沒有斷開, 車窗亦沒有損毀, 大部份意見認為
車身設計有助減少傷亡

個人意見認為, 如果是列車本身的問題, 有關方面
會即時檢查相同型號車輛, 甚至會停駛有關列車,
不過, 事發至今, 相同型號列車依然繼續行駛,
可見列車導致意外的可能性較低.

英國鐵路專家及交通運輸評論員 Christian Wolmar
指出, 是次意外與 2002 年位於 Potters Bar (倫敦以北)
火車出軌意外相似.  是次意外傷者包括當時鳳凰衛視
主播劉海若

原帖由 fungwb 於 2007-2-25 23:42 發表
英國的鐵路基建設施 (infrastructure - 即路軌, 訊號,
隧道, 橋樑及大部份車站等), 由 Network Rail 擁有及運作.
火車服務及車隊則由個別火車營運者負責.

Network Rail 在星期日表示, 星期一 (2月26日) 會 ...

除左17個大火車站外,大部份車站都係應該由火車公司/統籌當地交通的公司自己manage吧?(我唔知我有冇理解錯誤..亦都唔知係咪要投標定點)
車站站牌亦都有火車公司的logo/ poster/職員當值

但我有興趣既係一d鄉郊小站,冇職員,亦冇poster同logo,咁個站頭會係邊個認投維修呢?

原帖由 Octavian 於 2007-2-25 23:50 發表

除左17個大火車站外,大部份車站都係應該由火車公司/統籌當地交通的公司自己manage吧?(我唔知我有冇理解錯誤..亦都唔知係咪要投標定點)
車站站牌亦都有火車公司的logo/ poster/職員當值

但我有興趣既係一d ...

星期五啱啱教完Rail development in the UK, 而家再同大家溫下書啦

英國的鐵路設施(信號、設施、車站)全部由 Network Rail負責，而果d屬於火車公司負責既車站係根據專營權條例由Network Rail出租予個別火車營運者。

National Rail 係 ATOC (Association of Train Operating Companies)既服務代表，負責所有公司既票務。

火車服務由各間火車公司自己編排時間表

火車卡由三間Rolling Stock Company 負責租賃予各火車公司，包括 Angel Trains, HSBC Rail 同埋 Porterbrook。
Porterbrook 係 Stagecoach既子公司，South West Trains所有車都係經佢租賃。

當每一次專營權屆滿，而原本公司又唔續約既時間，新既中標公司就要聘請原有所有職員，而火車卡既舊contract 通常都係 專營權屆滿日止，所以新公司只要同Rolling Stock Company 簽過份新約就可以唔駛歸還而繼續營運。

就係因為咁先無理由咁多前車冇事而呢抽車出事。

宜家都仲未有一個解釋去說明出事前果個位發生過乜事，當中前車做過乜大家都未知。
that's why 個focus要俾落車輛的dymanics身上，因為只有抽車先會識加震，波口機都會但因為唔係成日動所以可以不理。
你話震鬆果口螺絲都總有個原因吧……

英國的鐵路問題，除o左以上之外，最大的問題係做完一樣野後斷唔到尾……

不過唔緊要，最尖端地區的意外成因調查睇得太多，去到英國之類的地區就一定唔適用架啦……

原帖由 500 於 2007-2-26 01:11 發表
就係因為咁先無理由咁多前車冇事而呢抽車出事。

宜家都仲未有一個解釋去說明出事前果個位發生過乜事，當中前車做過乜大家都未知。
that's why 個focus要俾落車輛的dymanics身上，因為只有抽車先會識加震，波口機都會但因為唔係成日動所以可以不理。
你話震鬆果口螺絲都總有個原因吧……

英國的鐵路問題，除o左以上之外，最大的問題係做完一樣野後斷唔到尾……

不過唔緊要，最尖端地區的意外成因調查睇得太多，去到英國之類的地區就一定唔適用架啦……

其實英國鐵路網的歷史你知幾多呢?

點解個個都話要睇下條路軌而唔係架車? 真係一字咁淺, AS-LEVEL ECONOMIST 都應該答到你....

胡亂私有化的後果, 果然係影響深遠..

原帖由 500 於 2007-2-25 19:49 發表
我只係唔會係呢個period將其他的可能性封殺掉。起碼宜家件事都仲需要一點時間黎將事實沈澱……
如果意外只係得一樣野就可以trigger的話，我睇好多現今的鐵路技術問題都可以輕易解決啦，係咪？

係，係好容易！

Initial rail crash findings due

Investigators are due to publish their initial report into the Cumbria train crash which killed an 84-year-old woman and seriously injured eight others. Rail expert Christian Wolmar told the BBC that it would reveal that part of a set of points to the south of the crash site was missing.

The stretcher bar, which keeps the rails apart, was not in place, he said.

The report is considering what caused the London to Glasgow Virgin Pendolino to derail near Kendal on Friday.

Mr Wolmar told BBC News 24 that his contacts had told him that as well as the missing stretcher bar, nuts and bolts had been found on the track.

It appeared to be a "terrible piece of maintenance", he said.

The stretcher bar was essential to keep the rails the right distance apart, Mr Wolmar said, and if it was missing the rail would be left "flapping about".

Speaking at the scene, Deputy Chief Constable Andy Trotter from the British Transport Police said it was too early to say whether the inquiry would be considering criminal charges.

The points "remained the major focal point of the investigation", he said.

Network Rail said it had found nothing of concern after checking 700 similar points in the wake of Friday's crash.

John Armitt, Network Rail's chief executive, told the BBC that disruption to the line was expected to last for between 10 days and two weeks while the investigation was carried out.

Addressing reports the crash could be linked to maintenance issues, he said: "I've no doubt that the people we are employing are qualified and competent to carry out the particular tests we require them to do."

He said the additional checks were a precautionary measure that any responsible organisation would undertake.

Transport Secretary Douglas Alexander is expected to make a statement on the crash in the Commons at about 1615 GMT.

Work on removing the train carriages from the site is not expected to begin until the end of the week.

Contractors are currently building two temporary roads from steel across muddy fields to allow heavy lifting gear access, and cranes will take about 48 hours to set up.

"We have been doing a finger-tip search of the site, trying to work around the carriages which, although stable at the moment, we are mindful of the fact that it's a very unstable environment," said Ch Supt Martyn Ripley, of the British Transport Police.

Thomas Edwards, who is leading the inquiry for the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), said two black box data recorders had been recovered from the wreckage and information from them would now be analysed.

He said, as well as looking at the points, investigators would also be examining the track between the points and where the train slipped down the embankment, signal boxes and the train itself.

A forensic examination carried out by the British Transport Police, the RAIB and Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate is expected to continue at the site for several days.

Meanwhile there have been calls for an independent public inquiry into the crash.

Louise Christian, the solicitor who represented victims of the 2002 Potters Bar crash, in which seven people died when a train derailed following a points failure, said not enough had been done since then to improve rail safety.

Former Transport Secretary Alistair Darling ruled out a public inquiry into Potters Bar but Network Rail and the line maintenance company Jarvis later admitted civil liability in relation to the crash.

Iain Black, 46, the train driver, who suffered a broken collar bone and a broken bone in his neck, is said to be in a serious but stable condition.

Another patient is undergoing neurosurgery.

While the crash investigation continues, buses are being laid on from Lancaster, Preston and Carlisle to replace suspended rail services.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6395987.stm

原帖由 hkbw 於 2007-2-26 21:53 發表


其實英國鐵路網的歷史你知幾多呢?

點解個個都話要睇下條路軌而唔係架車? 真係一字咁淺, AS-LEVEL ECONOMIST 都應該答到你....

胡亂私有化的後果, 果然係影響深遠..

英國的暴走經營方式，如其聞名已久的車、軌上下分離方式：路線專利權vs租車公司等，railtrack的「可以年年賺錢」維修方式、ppp等名稱都略知一二。

之但係，一個emergency crossover[從友人sent的連結中得知]真係化學到咁？整o左一個月都唔夠就會壞？
呢D問題，唔向會行的車、或有關路段的維修記錄等地方中找答案，那又應該向那兒找？

睇黎呢D咁奇異的鐵路文化特色，全世界就只有英國先會係咁……
另一個睇法係：可能我睇得太多頂尖級ge野，當我switch back to
一個鐵路技術同第二世界國家之尾～第三國家又到唔晒的地方(在此稱為英國)時就有一種奇蹟*的感覺。
[*：咁ge水平都仲可以提供到一定的服務，唔用奇蹟黎形容真係浪費。
原本我個人係expect一年爆返幾百單大大小小不同的奇聞，就連不合適的雪都可以成理由的話，仲有乜野係唔得呢……]

[ 本帖最後由 500 於 2007-2-26 23:16 編輯 ]